Hypothetical

The following is reposted by request. It 's a record of a forum conversation conducted some months ago regarding gang stalking/Covert Investigations that has now been removed. The following was a "hypothetical conversation" between GS, and BB another poster.

BB-
1. I was talking to a friend about all the posts concerning Gang Stalking and community policing, and we came up with these things that we think may help counter the stalking.
2. (Intended For entertainment purposes only, and on the assumption such a thing as Gang Stalking exists of course, so don’t take any of this seriously).
He he he he.
3. Have friends sign up for community policing, so you have some one on the inside.
4. Walk your block, any were you can have a good vantage point of the area, is were they will be, so if you see some one there, it will probably be them. (Identifying, them is half the battle).
5. Bug your own car, in case they set you up, use voice or sound activated tape recorders when ever you can, like in your home. If some one comes in while you are out, you now have a voice. Carry one under your shirt.
6. Start your own data base; always have a camera or video with you ALLWAYS. Record possible faces and cars. (You could say you are making a movie or you are an artist as a reason for always being seen taking pictures of cars and people).
7. Lead them to areas were you know there is not much traffic or people, have a friend hide with a video cam, to catch the car plates and the people in the cares if he/she can.
8. (Call the friend from a pay phone).
9. If you are set up, take as many of them to jail with you as you can (set them up, he he he just kidding). If you can’t figure who set them on you, them implicate your known enemies, as drug dealers or rats or other. If you go down when they go through your computer or diary, and there is the names of the locals you think may be involved; now they are in the hot seat to.
10. Get a friend to call and find out were they meet and collect as much info as possible.
11. Have your lawyer ask if the accuser, or accusers, are, or have ever been, a part of community policing, and if they have ever been told to follow or monitor you, then lead to how often and how many people involved. (to show stalking).
12. Freedom of information form can be filled out by your lawyer, ask to see if the local police have ever had you under surveillance, for how long, how many involved, and if community policing was used. And why.
13. Place small peaces of paper on top of your door when you close it or tie a hair across it, or place a small breakable fuse under door mats when you leave to see if they have been disturbed when you get back home.
14. Spread pepper to through dogs of from smelling around or in your home, the basement in particular.
15. Keep a diary, and make burn CDs of all video and pictures you have of them. Make lots of copies, and mail or email them to your self or friends to keep.
16. Have more than one email address.
17. When possible have other people use you computer, (with in reason), if anything is planted by the stalkers now you are not the only one that has used it.
18. Call work (payphone) take the occasional impromptu long drive late Sunday.
You don’t have to go to work they do, and they (probably as many as four cars) will all have to pay gas. (Gets expensive for volunteers).
19. Bike up one way streets, (just kidding that is eligal and dangerous, dont do it, he he he) this annoys them when they are in cars, or take your bike in the trunk then pull over lock your car then bike.
20. When they stalk you in cars they will run a box type pattern, two or three will get in front of you and then one will split to the left and right to monitor if you turn right or left one will stay in front and one will be behind you by a few blocks. You are now boxed in no matter what direction you turn. Exhaust them and there gas and resources by walking or driving a few docks in one direction then go back then reverse it, you travel less than they do they spend money.
21. When you see one of them approach them, and ask for the time, or start a conversation there friends will gather, but they are not supposed to talk to you as they may find out you are innocent and this will cause them to question there superiors, and there operation could be jeopardized.
22. If they cause you to loose your job, then you have complete control over the hours you sleep and were you go, make them follow you at three or four in the morning then switch your sleeping pattern.
23. Condition them to expect certain behavior (walk at the same time every day, go to the same coffee shop), then when you need to you can throw them a curve.
24. Be around people as much as possible.
25. Get a police background check done on your self, it costs about $25.00 then when it comes back clear use it to try to join community policing, (now they cant say they did not know you were innocent and not a criminal, in court this is a good tool).
26. Have friends get the police check done and have them join community policing, so you have inside information to confirm you are being stalked.
27. Do volunteer work in the community to improve you image and to cause the stalkers to doubt why they are stalking someone that is helping the community. And to be around people and to stay sane.
28. Don’t be a victim; use your imagination to set them up and to expose them. Dont assume there is no counter to Gang Stalking, if it was invented by man it can be broken or counterd by man.
Don’t take any of this seriously it is all hypothetical and not intended as advise of any kind. As we all know Gang Stalking does not exist. He he he he.


GS-
Thank you for the hypothetical suggestions.
Yeah well apparently gang stalking does not exist, from what I can see it was set up as disinformation to lead targets astray from these stupid insidious Cointelpro type investigations that are happening to innocent people in society.
They threw in just enough truth to make it feasable, so that when targets go to the police, who fully know what's happening, and start complaining about gang stalking, they get their butt's kicked, or get termed crazy, or whatever.

You have a covert investigation, where there people friends, families, employers, landlords etc, are contacted and told God know's what about these people, and then they get asked to spy on you. Also with the community civilian snitches, who use their little Stasi signal to communicate. (How appropriate.)

If I had known when this junk first began that that was what was going on, I could have gone straight to a lawyer, and said hey look, this is what seems to be going on, can you do anything? Instead I had to spend months looking into this, to try to figure out what is happening to the targets.

People like David Lawson who wrote terrorist stalking in America are either government agents spreading disinfo, or just really stupid. Considering the term gang stalking did not come along until after his first book, and now they seem to be trying to fade out the term it's so irritating.
From what I read about Kilmeer Gill, you know that Montreal shooter, it sounds like he might have been under watch for over 6 years. Things that were written in his blog, sound like this, and if that's the case, they might have driven him to a state where he was capable of hurting those people. I think the actions of these covert investigation are criminal themselves. Just like Cointelpro was criminal and conducted by the government, it's the same thing, but now they are using civilian spies to help ruin the lives of innocent people.

Do you know how many people are taking part in this, who don't know the harm they are doing to others, or the roles they are really playing? I think that the media have a responsibillity to report this stuff, and to do investigative documentaries about this stuff, but just like during the McCarthy era, they won't, and more innocent people will just get destroyed. It saddens me to realise that we are once again in such at time period.

With people trying to sensor this information. It really makes me very angry, that someone would censor information on something that is affecting innocent people. People have a right to know, and they trust the media to tell them. http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/201696
At least some of the truth is getting through, but it's a shame that more media people are not stepping up to the plate and trying to do the right thing. Whatever that is in our new survellence, snitch society, where everyone monitors everyone else.

BB-
What you say about Kilmeer Gill sounds possible, he did say he wanted to get away but that they wouldn’t let him, or something like that.
He sounded like he could have been Gang Stalked to the breaking point.
I don’t understand why people don’t legislate for:
1. Them to have identification displayed that could be easily seen from a distance for the safety of the people they follow and assume guilty, and for the safety of the general public, and the volunteers them self’s.
2. I am asking what safeguards are in place for the public, to show there is no abuse of power by the COPP type programs.
3. What is in place to stop them (COPP) targeting Natives or others, based on a bias or the word of someone with a grudge or even on the word of a cop.
4. Where are the neutral third parties and the transparency for the public to observe?
And question and watch them at will.
5. Where or at what point are the people targeted allowed to see the evidence against them and to disprove it to the COPP, Gang Stalkers?
6. What is the Government doing to be held accountable for the safety of the citizens on patrol volunteers, and the people they may follow, or Stalk, on behalf of the police (Hypothetical example).
7. Why are there no limits to the length of Stalking time to avoided disasters? Kilmeer Gill as possible example you have given. If the police have to have programs like COPP to Stalk or harass people for them then there should be a limit of two weeks or months. After that the police should do there own work, or have CSIS do it for them.

Have the COPP programs set them selves up as judge, jury, and executioner?
Inventing evidence when none is there to justify there existence?
The COPP programs volunteers would not be told that they are harassing innocent people, and most would not question there authority figures. They would simply be unaware that what they are being asked to do, is legal (hence the need for no identification on cars or persons).
Nor would they need to know they could be the cause of someone snapping or committing suicide, as you saw this is a real possibility. I guess it would all depend on how fanatical there leader is. All this is a possibility, so what precautions are in place?

And the problem comes when they start stalking people that are not criminals, but that may have been out spoken either against police or government or other groups.
Even a good person can be painted as a criminal when they (COPP programs) choose to use these tactics, with police backing.

I am not saying that this is the case, but Is this Russia are they the COPP programs against people having the right to answer to what ever COPP has accused them of, that may have caused the Gang Stalking in the first place?

What safeguards are in place by the Government for the public, to show there is no abuse of power by the COPP programs?
It they were to “gang stalk” people on behalf of the police or other force (just an example you understand).

I would think it would be dangerous to them, as most criminals are a little paranoid to begin with. Having them (alleged criminals) “gang stalked” on behalf of the police, would place them the citizens on patrol in danger, as they may be mistaken for other criminals or gang members.
Are these people required by the Government to wear easily seen identification on there cars and persons at all times?

Have the police ever gotten the citizens on patrol to follow or “Gang Stalk” people under a presumption of guilt rather than actual guilt?

After all the RCMP fiascos can we afford not to ask these questions and have safe guards put in place?

All of this is just wild speculation and rumor of course.

Why has no one tried to get inside there groups and expose them?

Why has no one tried to write a book outlining some of there tactics. And measures to counter there tactics (it would be a hell of a money maker).

All of this is just wild speculation and rumor of course, based on the assumption that such a thing as Gang Stalking by police sponsored vigilante type groups exists.

GS- Here is some more information on Gill and why I think he really was a target of this practice, and I think this is what lead to the shooting in Montreal. This is why I think what I do, and this is why I would like to see more media information about this.
http://www.thetrenchcoat.com/archives/1487-The-blogroll-on-Kimveer-Gill.html

For those with a short memory you might remember that Kimveer Gill was the young Montreal man who went on a shooting spree several months ago killing at least 1 person and wounding at least a dozen others.

Most people just wrote him off as a nut case who was into video games and mixed up fantasy with reality, a goth who hated society. For those of us who stopped to read some of his postings to gain clues to what might have happened, there is an angle that has not been discussed, that has not been talked about.

Here are some of his blog postings that I found really interesting.
Dated September 12, 2006

[quote]Stop Bullying
It?s not only the bully?s fault you know!!
It?s the teachers and principals fault for turning a blind eye, just cuz it?s not their job. You *uckers are pathetic.
It?s the police?s fault for not doing anything when people conplain (oops, my mistake, the cops are corrupt sons of whores, so it?s not like they can do anything about it.)
*UCK THE POLICE
It?s society?s fault for acting like it?s normal for people to be assholes to each other. Society disgusts me.
It?s everyone?s fault for being so apathetic towards *ucking everything that doesn?t affect them personally. *UCK YOU SOCIETY.
[/quote]

It sounds like his bullying, which is what he called it, might have involved trying to get the police to do something, but it sounds like they not only did not do anything about the bullying, they also he ends with calling them corrupt. Why?

Not so outside the realm of what you might find in many other bullying cases, but here is something that is particularly interesting.

[quote]I wonder why my household has been under surveillance by law enforcement for 6 years now? Makes no sense to me!!
Oh, you?re wondering how I know?
lol
Bet you little monkeys are
Hey, assholes!!
Everything everyone says or does against me is shown to me in my dreams, I see everything. You *ucking monkeys.
God, you humans are so inferior.
[/quote]


The above is taken from the trench coat site, where they have his blog postings. Now the last post was the one I found the most interesting, when doing research on this. Trying to understand if in fact the actions of others, did in part lead to the situation in Montreal, and if so what can be done to prevent it and avoid it in future.

I am wondering what guidelines there are in place for things like this, but after reading about Mahar Arar and the bs the CSIS and RCMP pulled, I realized there is no one moral at the gate. I mean they realised the man was innocent and did nothing to change the perception of his guilt and were willing to let him rot in some country where he was being tortured, and part of why he was on some list had more to do with who he had associated with in the past.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

[quote]Zaccardelli says he first learned that the Mounties had passed erroneous information about Arar on to U.S authorities after a public inquiry report was released by Justice Dennis O'Connor in the fall of 2006. In September that year, Zaccardelli told a parliamentary committee that he had learned of the RCMP's mistake shortly after Arar's deportation to Syria in 2002. [/quote]

From what I understand after ralising that the RCMP was corrupt, they created CSIS only to have the same corruption happen all over again.

They knew they had passed on false information and did nothing to correct it, if anything they did the opposite. These are the people we are suppose to trust, to protect us and the rights of innocent citizens.

[quote]RCMP Commissioner Giuliano Zaccardelli breaks more than a week of silence on Maher Arar's ordeal, apologizing for the "nightmare" that arose when the Mounties wrongly linked him to terrorism. Speaking before the House of Commons security committee, Zaccardelli denies that the government muzzled him from speaking earlier on the case and insists he will not step down as commissioner over the affair.
Several critics have called for Zaccardelli's resignation following the revelation of the RCMP's blunders, detailed in O'Connor's report on the investigation.
[/quote]

The same thing happens in these covert investigations. I can see why they are opened in secret to an extent, but based on extensive conversations with people that are being harassed in this way, there is a lot being done to set them up so that they can look and come across as crazy. Wither it's them being batted in public, so they can have an angry outburst, to them having their home entered and stuff moved around, or other small things that make them sound collectively crazy it's the same thing, and there is seemingly no reason for it.

The other thing is some of these people are whistle-blowers, minorities, and single woman, people that are marginalized or independent, the type that for whatever reason the government has decided to go after. There are people that I have talked to that have said that this has been going on for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. How inefficient would you have to be, that you need 20 years to determine if someone is a criminal, crazy, terrorist, whatever lie you are making up? Honestly.

There does not seem to be any moral force governing this, and from what I can see, have observed, and confirmed with others, the police are fully corporation with making these people sound like they are crazy when they go to the police. Eg. The police are aware of these eyes and ears programs, when I spoke to one office he had in his division 5 reports of stalking of this specific nature. The reports were apparently all from single females, and yet he was writing them off as paranoid. (These community officers know about this program, because they are the ones who are in charge of it for the various divisions, just to give you an idea.)

From what I can see it seems that a large part of society is going along with the snitching and civilian spying, but not necessarily the brightest part of society, or the cleanest. What I mean is, I have seen some people that I am pretty sure are criminal elements, who acting as civilian spies, and I am so grossed out by that. I mean snitches will sell their mothers out for money, why not innocent people?

Since this is being used to target certain primary groups, what you have said about this being used as a revenge service has a lot of merit. To this date, there is no clear guideline that I have been able to find to the length of time a covert investigation can be ongoing for, the guidelines for incidents getting reported. Eg. I mentioned targets being set up by some of these snitches/civilian spies.

[quote]1. Them to have identification displayed that could be easily seen from a distance for the safety of the people they follow and assume guilty, and for the safety of the general public, and the volunteers them self’s.
2. I am asking what safeguards are in place for the public, to show there is no abuse of power by the COPP type programs.
3. What is in place to stop them (COPP) targeting Natives or others, based on a bias or the word of someone with a grudge or even on the word of a cop.
4. Where are the neutral third parties and the transparency for the public to observe?
And question and watch them at will.
5. Where or at what point are the people targeted allowed to see the evidence against them and to disprove it to the COPP, Gang Stalkers?
6. What is the Government doing to be held accountable for the safety of the citizens on patrol volunteers, and the people they may follow, or Stalk, on behalf of the police (Hypothetical example).
7. Why are there no limits to the length of Stalking time to avoided disasters? Kilmeer Gill as possible example you have given. If the police have to have programs like COPP to Stalk or harass people for them then there should be a limit of two weeks or months. After that the police should do there own work, or have CSIS do it for them.
[/quote]

1. See they are suppose to be just average citizens while out on the road, they act as the eyes and ears of society, so for the snitching purpose of this, giving them identification would not work. The other problem is because there is no id, anyone and I do mean anyone can take advantage of this. If I am aware of this, who else is? Skin heads, KKK, can you imagine them baiting a target, then several of their friends reporting the incident of the crazy target? Hitlers Brown Coats, use to do this to the Jews in WWII so they could make them act out and get arrested, and now we have this in our society.

2. There are no safeguards from what I can see, because if the target of this can not give their feedback or input, then it's completely bogus. Eg. Even when targets file police reports, the police reports are often not filed, or purposely twisted around to make the target look crazy. Also with the baiting, the target never get's to explain why they got angry or yelled at someone. Guilty because some corrupt people say so, and the target get's no input, and from what I can see, there are people purposely baiting targets, with the blessing of the people in charge. (From what I can see.)

3. There is nothing to stop them, and based on who is getting targeted, it looks like they are one step ahead of you with choosing whom to target. Society already has the police racial profiling people this is just one more way for them to do it and long term, until someones life is destroyed. There is no time line for these investigations.

4. Not only that, but if you suspect you are under investigation, there is no place to go, and no party to turn to. Amnesty will not help with this, and most lawyers can not discuss this, because how many have also agreed to be the eyes and ears of the state? So targets are left with no resources to clear their names. And since the media will also do nothing to help, most don't know what exactly is happening to them.

5. They are never allowed to see the evidence against them. Just like Guantanamo Bay, So there could be tons of erroneous bs, and all the target know is maybe they can't get an apartment, or find a job, or people are mean or rude to them, but they have no idea why. The ultimate way to black ball and black list someone, and where is the media to help them? Nowhere.

6. I don't know about that, but if Gill was a target of this, then they should be charged equally with the death of that girl. You can not do something so inhuman to someone and then wonder at the outcome. We now recognise this in bullying and the connection to school shootings. We need to acknowledge this as well. I think the thing with these investigations is that some targets will kill themselves, others, go to jail, become homeless, or be institutionalised, and if only a small percentage is damaged every year, it does not appear that bad.

Videos: Cointelpro.
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si1bHa45u18
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJqMcafwFJ8
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN9TZDL4WqI
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbMsOGWN_ts
7. Because from the research that I have been able to find, and from talking to others, just like
with Cointelpro investigations, the goal is to destroy the target. They did this to Martin Luther King Jr. People have to understand that governments do bad things. If the media would do their jobs, then this would be understood.

They tried to destroy that man, and when that failed, they targeted him for termination, and a month later he was assassinated.
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/churchfinalreportIIIb.htm

[quote]Have the COPP programs set them selves up as judge, jury, and executioner? Inventing evidence when none is there to justify there existence? [/quote]

I think the people running this have set themselves up to be just that, since there is no input from the target. How in a democratic society can you be declared guilty without seeing the evidence against you, and have you life so interfered with. I mean these people will contact everyone in a targets life with the same lies, and ask or force them to go along with the spying. Every store a target goes into, they are exposed as someone who needs watching wither it's true or not.

Exactly. Inventing evidence to justify their existence. If they can show that we have a bunch of unstable, criminal, terrorist people in society, then it's funding for them. It's reason for their existence. There is no one saying hey wait a second, how do we know it's true? Cointelpro all over again.

[quote]The COPP programs volunteers would not be told that they are harassing innocent people, and most would not question there authority figures. They would simply be unaware that what they are being asked to do, is legal (hence the need for no identification on cars or persons).

Nor would they need to know they could be the cause of someone snapping or committing suicide, as you saw this is a real possibility. I guess it would all depend on how fanatical there leader is. All this is a possibility, so what precautions are in place?
[/quote]

Exactly. Then you get a term like gang stalking and it just confuses things. Eg. The target goes looking for answers and via the term gang stalking, they are told it's these evil vigilante types that are committing this stuff. They know themselves to be innocent so of course they believe that it's vigilantes.

Meanwhile the people doing the stalking, sorry civilian spying, see about 15 minutes of the targets life. So they really do believe they are stalking someone who is crazy, a criminal, danger to society, whatever lie they have been told. A lot of them are just trying to be good citizens.
So you have two world's colliding. The target who is followed and harassed every freaking day gets it. They feel victimized, and they have no place to turn for help or assistance. They become a creature with their back to the wall, most will eventually come out fighting.

The civilian spies might be told to jiggle keys at someone every time the subway announcement is read out, while someone else none partial observes the behaviour. (This is how it's suppose to be neutral and none partial, and fair.) What they don't see, is the little trouble maker who tried to shove the keys in someones face, and upset them just 10 minutes later. Thus they get angry because they are acutely aware that they are being harassed and they don't like it.

So from the targets point of view they are getting harassed, from the person who is observing this, the target is acting irrational. Cause they don't see the people who tried to trip the target, while the other jangled keys in front of them yesterday. Etc. This goes on, and they take the input of the person doing the observation and the civilian spies. So it all looks neutral. I mean 7 civilian spies who don't know the target are not going to make up a lie right? If they don't have the whole picture, then yes that is what they are doing inadvertently, and it's shame. A lot of the civilian spies are not bad people. They think they are helping the country.

I mean they don't any better. They are asked to observe someone for 15 minutes, they see them flipping out, they file a report, and they never ask or question the events that came before it.

[quote]And the problem comes when they start stalking people that are not criminals, but that may have been out spoken either against police or government or other groups.
Even a good person can be painted as a criminal when they (COPP programs) choose to use these tactics, with police backing.
I am not saying that this is the case, but Is this Russia are they the COPP programs against people having the right to answer to what ever COPP has accused them of, that may have caused the Gang Stalking in the first place? [/quote]

In Russia they used this on activists and dissidents all the time to make them look mentally ill, so they could lock them away.

The other problem is they are using criminal elements to be the extra set of eyes and ears. So you have low lives, also helping to stalk innocent people. Clearly I don't have to paint this picture for you.

[quote]What safeguards are in place by the Government for the public, to show there is no abuse of power by the COPP programs? [/quote]

In the research that I have done over the last 10 months I have found nothing. The police will not talk about the investigations or how someone get's off the list. (I have been able to get that far, but stalled with the investigations unit.) The RCMP have a complaint process, but it's for a complaint against a specific agent or person.

Since targets don't have names, or a clear info about which division is doing what, who is heading stuff up, it's really hard. Also since the police are lying about this, it's almost impossible. Very few will admit to the program and very few will try to do anything to help targets. Most will flat out lie and say there is no such thing. (Harder for them, since the article came out, but they do still try.)

[quote]Have the police ever gotten the citizens on patrol to follow or “Gang Stalk” people under a presumption of guilt rather than actual guilt?
[/quote]

I think we all know the answer to this question. You have some really good questions, and you understand this really well. Hypothetically of course.

[quote]After all the RCMP fiascos can we afford not to ask these questions and have safe guards put in place?
[/quote]

No the truth is, we can not afford to, but yet we do anyways.

[quote]Why has no one tried to get inside there groups and expose them?
Why has no one tried to write a book outlining some of there tactics. And measures to counter there tactics (it would be a hell of a money maker).
[/quote]

The problem is as a target, you will not be asked to be a civilian spy, so you have to use those investigative journalist skills to find out any details.

Phones bugged, acquaintances all of them contacted, so they are all sworn to secrecy, and most do keep their mouths shut. Only a few targets have been lucky enough to have good friends clue them in.

I agree with the book idea, but because of what David Lawson did with his book, it might make targets look questionable.

[quote]Stalking by police sponsored vigilante type groups exists.[/quote]

Remember they don't call it state sponsored stalking. They call it being an extra set of eyes and ears. It's so nice the PC terms being used. I guess to call it the means of driving your fellow citizens to suicide, mass slaughter, institutionalization, jail, or homelessness, just does not have the same ring to it.